Le livre de Mormon

[lkm]

Salut les amis, y a t-il une personne qui serait d'accord pour me traduire un livre de l'anglais vers le français. Il s'agit d'un livre très important qui critique l'islam. A l'origine il est écrit en persan mais j'ai pas le temps ni la tete :? :? j'ai la version anglaise.
S'il y a une personne intéressée, je peux le lui poster par morceaux et il le traduit.
merci

[Alice]

Je suis désolée, je réponds mais pas pour proposer mes services, car je ne maitrise pas assez bien l'anglais pour un tel travail.
C'est quoi le titre en anglais, et le nom de l'auteur, peut être qu'il existe déjà une version française ?

Cependant, j'estime que pour avoir une bonne version, il faut traduire du de la langue d'origine directement, et surtout pas à partir d'une traduction, car il y a des idées qui se perdent immanquablement. Je dis ça en tant que puriste hein.

Alice

[lkm]

Je suis désolée, je réponds mais pas pour proposer mes services, car je ne maitrise pas assez bien l'anglais pour un tel travail.
C'est quoi le titre en anglais, et le nom de l'auteur, peut être qu'il existe déjà une version française ?

Cependant, j'estime que pour avoir une bonne version, il faut traduire du de la langue d'origine directement, et surtout pas à partir d'une traduction, car il y a des idées qui se perdent immanquablement. Je dis ça en tant que puriste hein.

Alice

Salut alice
Le livre a été écrit avant la révolution iranienne en Perse. Celui qui l’a écrit a été incarcéré par le chah. Après la révolution il a dit que si son livre n’a pas été interdit, il n’y aurait pas eu de révolution. Il a été tué dans la prison après la révolution et son livre a été traduit en anglais. Je suis très sûr de cela, le livre n’est pas du tout connu. J’ai entendu parler de lui sans jamais le trouver jusqu’ il y a 3 mois Al Ma3arri, membre du forum AIME, m’a envoyé la version perse de ce livre. J’ai contacté une connaissance iranienne à moi pour voir si elle a une version française mais elle m’a dit qu’elle n’a qu’une version en anglais donc on va essayer de le traduire en français. Ce livre raconte 23 ans obscures de la vie de Mohamed avec des preuves bien claires comme le livre « Pourquoi je ne suis pas musulman » mais plus historique.
voilà alice

[lorie]

Coucou karim ...

Impossible pour moi de te répondre favorablement mais sur AIME tu pourrais demander à Claudia ??? elle fait déjà des traductions pour l'assoss il me semble ..

Elle ne vient plus sur les forums mais dans son dernier mail elle me disait qu'elle travaillait en bénévole pour AIME et qu'elle faisait des traductions ..

Si tu veux je lui demande ..

[lkm]

J’ai oublié Alice, le traduire du Perse au français c’est vraiment dure pour moi mais par contre si quelqu’un le traduit de l'anglais, après moi je ferai la comparaison avec la version perse, ça serait très bien.

Oui Lorie, si tu trouve une personne digne de confiance pour la traduction ça serai bien merci.

[Alice]

Elle ne vient plus sur les forums mais dans son dernier mail elle me disait qu'elle travaillait en bénévole pour AIME et qu'elle faisait des traductions

Ah tu as eu de ses nouvelles ? Tu lui passeras le bonjour de ma part. J'ai un bon souvenir de ses interventions, posées, argumentées et réfléchies.

Alice

[Dralnar]

Bonsoir Karim

Si tu veux,je peux essayer mais mes connaissances en anglais ne sont pas parfaites,ca a l'air d'un gros boulot et je n'ai pas un temps infini.

On pourrait voir avec une page test et je te dirai sincèrement si c'est possible.Envoie-la moi sur mon adresse mail!

Si je ne peux pas,je pourrai peut-être trouver dans l'asso fabula des gens que ça intéresserait (et on pourrait après partager les infos)

On pourrait aussi peut-être s'y mettre à plusieurs.Une partie chacun!

[lkm]

Bonsoir Karim

Si tu veux,je peux essayer mais mes connaissances en anglais ne sont pas parfaites,ca a l'air d'un gros boulot et je n'ai pas un temps infini.

On pourrait voir avec une page test et je te dirai sincèrement si c'est possible.Envoie-la moi sur mon adresse mail!

Si je ne peux pas,je pourrai peut-être trouver dans l'asso fabula des gens que ça intéresserait (et on pourrait après partager les infos)

On pourrait aussi peut-être s'y mettre à plusieurs.Une partie chacun!

ok Dralnar le livre conte 260 pages, je t'envoie 3 page l'introduction
merci

[lkm]

23 YEARS A STUDY OF THE PROPHETIC CAREER OF MOHAMMED
ALI DASHTI

Note on the Author
by F. R. C. Bagley
The religion of Islam, founded by Mohammad in his prophetic career which began in 610 and ended with his death in 632, has helped to shape the cultures and lifestyles of many nations.
In the last hundred years, numerous scholarly books have been wriuen about Mohammad, the Qor’ân, and Islamic theology, laws, sects, and mystic movements. Foreign scholars have accom plished essential tasks of gathering and analysing data. Indigenous scholars have for the most part written expositions and apologia, and with exceptions such as the Egyptian T Hosayn, who lived from 1889 to 1973 and was blind, have flot paid much attention to difficulties.

The book Bist o Seh S21 (Twenty Three Years) by the Iranian scholar A1i Dashti (1896—1981—2) is valuable because it discusses both values and problems which Islam presents to modem Moslems.

Born in 1896 in a village in Dashtestân, a district adjoining the port of Bushehr on the Persian GuIf, A1i Dashti was the SOfl 0f Shaykh Abd ol-Hosayn Dashtestâni. At a young age he was taken by his father to Karbalâ in Iraq, which then belonged to the Ottoman empire. Karbalâ, where the Prophet Mohammad’s grandson Hosayn was martyred in 680, and Najaf (about 70 km. or 43 m. to the south), where the Prophet’s cousin and son-in-law Ali was martyred in 661, are visited by Shi Moslem pilgrims and have colleges (inadrasas) where Sh?ite clergy Colama) are trained and theological studies are pursued. Despite the unsettled con ditions in the First World War, Ali Dashti received a full training in these inadrasas and acquired a thorough knowledge of Islamic theology and history, logic, rhetoric, and Arabic and Persian grammar and classical literature.

After his return from Iraq to Iran in 1918, however, he decided against a clerical career. Having strong patriotic feelings and an awareness of world developments, he preferred to devote his fluent pen to journalism. Eventually he succeeded in establishing his own newspaper at Tehràn, Shafaq-e Sorkh (Red Dawn), which lasted from 1 March 1922 until 18 March 1935. He was its editor until 1 March 1931, when Mâ’el Tuyserkâni took over. In 1919 A1i Dashti was imprisoned for a time after he had written articles criticizing the proposed Anglo-Iranian treaty of that year (which was later dropped), and in 1921 and subsequently he spent some more short spells in prison. He described his experiences and thoughts in articles which were collected in a book, A)yâm-e Mahbas (Prison Days). With its radical and modernizing tone, shrewd observations, pleasant humor, and fluent style, this book won immediate popularity and was several limes reprinted in amplified editions. Shafaq-e Sorkh became noted for the high quality of its articles on social and literary subjects written by Ali Dashti and his then young collaborators, among whom were distinguished men such as the poet and literary historian Rashid Y and the scholarly researchers Sa Nafisi, Abbas EqbAl, and Mohammad Mohit Tabâtab

During those years, Ali Dashti taught himself French and began to read widely in modem French literature and in English and Russian literature in French translations. He also read mater ial in French on current affairs, music and painting (in which he was interested), and Islamic subjects. He was one of the few Iranians who took an interest in modem Arabic, particularly Egyptian, literature. At a time when most writers of Persian prose were still addicted to elaborate metaphors and complex sentences, he developed a fluent but elegant style which was widely admired and copied, the only adverse criticism being that he used too many borrowed French words. Not only his original writings gained popularity, but also his translations of Edmond Demolins’s A quoi tient la supériorité des Anglo-Saxons and of an Arabic version of Samuel Smiles’s Self-Help.

In 1927 Ali Dashti was invited to visit Russia for the tenth anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution, and he took the oppor tunity to extend his journey and see France and other Western European countries. He was elected to the Majles (Parliament) as deputy for Bushehr in 1928 and again in the next two parliaments, and won a reputation for forceful speaking. After the expiry of the Ninth Majies in 1935, however, he was again detained and kept under house arrest for fourteen months. In 1939 he was re-elected to the Majles as deputy for Damâvand (near Tehrân), and after the Anglo-Russian occupation of Iran he won the same seat in the elec, of 1941 and 1943. He was the leading figure in the Adâlat (Justice) party, a group favoring moderate and practicable social reforms. As a patriot he expressed alarm at the risks taken in 1946 by the then prime minister, Qavâm os-Saltana, in admitting members of the Soviet-backed Tuda party into the cabinet and in negotiating on the Soviet demand for an oil concession. His outspokenness landed him in prison in April 1946. After his release six months later, he went to France and stayed there until the end of 1948, when he was appointed ambassador to Egypt and the Lebanon. He was briefly minister of foreign affairs in the cabinet of Hosayn Alâ, which held office for a fortnight before Mohammad Mosaddeq’s rise to the premiership on 2 April 1951. In 1954 he was appointed a senator (half of the members of the Senate being elected and haif appointed by the Shah). He remained in the Senate until the Islamic revolution of 11 February 1979 and won further esteem for his contributions to its debates, which often carried more weight than those of the Majies.

In the literary world, Ali Dashti was best known during the early post-war years as an essayist and novelist. In Sâya (1946), a collection of reprinted articles and sketches, his tone remains modernizing, but is less radical than in his previous writings. During and after Rezâ Shah’s reign, the social problem which was most discussed in Iran, or at least in upper and middle class circles, was the status of women. Iranian women had been compulsorily unveiled on 7 January 1936, but after the war women of the lower classes resumed the veil and women of the upper and middle classes came under strong pressure to do likewise. Ali Dashti sympathized with the desire of educated Iraman women for freedom to use their brains and express their personalities; but he does not present a very favorable picture of them in his collections of novelettes Fetna (1943 and 1949), Jâdu (1951), and Hendu (1955). His heroines engage in ifirtations and intrigues with no apparent motive except cold calculation. Nevertheless these stories are very readable, and they provide a vivid, and no doubt partly accurate, record of the social life of the upper classes and the psychological problems of the educated women in Tehrân at the time.

Ali Dashti’s literamy reputation, however, rests on his work as a scholar and critic of the Persian classics. The Itanians take legitimate pride in their heritage but have shown reluctance to discuss the difficulties which the classics present to their own younger generation, let alone to foreigners. One difficulty is the archaic language of the classics, another is their medieval atmosphere, and another is their bulk. Sâ’eb, the leading poet of the Safavid period, wrote 300,000 verses, most of which were probably flot mtended to be more than ephemeral. In any case, nobody can read ail the classics. Modem Iranian scholars have generaily taken a classical author’s greatness for granted and have concentrated their research on matters such as the influence of the author’s training and career, and bis forerunners and patrons, on the form and content of bis work, and bis own influence on successors. Ali Dashti, while flot neglecting such points, tried to pick out and explain the elements in the works of certain classical poets which have continuing artistic and moral value for the modem reader. He also makes candid criticisms, mentioning for instance that Sa gives some very immoral pieces of advice in addition to ever popular maxims of common sense, good manners, and good humor. Although there is necessarily a measure of subjectivity in Ali Dashti’s appraisals, his new approach met a widely feit need and helped to revive popular interest in the classics. lis books in this field, which were several times reprinted, are as follows:
Naqshi az Hâfez (1936), on the poet Hâfez (ca. 13 19—1390).

Sayri dar Divân-e Shams, on the lyric verse of the poet Mawlavi Jalâl od-Din Rumi (1207—1273).

Da qalainraw-e Sa on the poet and prose-writer Sa
(1208?—1292).

Shâ dir-âshnâ (1961), on Khâqâni (1 121?—1 199), a particu larly difficuit but interesting poet.

Dami bâ Kha (1965), on the quatrain-writer and mathema tician Omar Khayyâm (1048?—1 131); translated by Laurence P. Elwell Sutton, In Search of Omar Khayyam, London 1971.
Negâhi be-Sâ’eb (1974), on the poet Sâ’eb (1601—1677).

Kâkh-e ebdâ andishahâ-ye gunâgun-e Hâfez, on various ideas expressed by Hâfez.
In his later years Ali Dashti returned to the study of Islam, for which he was well qualified by bis madrasa training and his wide reading of modem Egyptian and European works. His approach was the same as in bis literary studies, namely to emphasize elements of lasting value and to discuss problems frankly. His writings in this field are as follows:
Parda-ye pendâr (1974 and twice reprinted), on Sufism (Islamic mysticism).

Jabr yâ ekhtzyâr (anonymous and undated, contents first published in the periodical Vahid in 1971), dialogues with a Sufi about predestination and free will.

Takht-e Pulâd (anonymous and undated, contents first published in the periodical Khâterât in 1971—72), dialogues in the historic Takht-e Pulâd cemetery of Esfahân with a learned â1em who sticks to the letter of the Qor’àn and the Hadith.

Oqalâ bar khelâf-e aql (1975 and twice reprinted, revised versions of articles first published in the periodicals Yaghmâ in 1972 and 1973, Vahid in 1973, and Râhnomâ-ye Ketâb in 1973, with two additional articles), on logical contradictions in argu ments used by theologians, particularly Mohammad ol-Ghazzâli (1058—1111).

Dar dzyâr-e Sufiyân (1975), on Sufism, a continuation of Parda-ye pendâr.

Bist o Seh Sâl (anonymous and without indication of place and date of publication, but evidently flot later than 1974 and accord ing to Ali Dashti’s statement printed at Beirut), a study of the prophetic career of Mohammad.

The government of Mohammad Rezâ Shâh Pahlavi and his prime minister from 1965 to 1977, Amir Abbâs Hovaydâ, main tained a censorship which offended many Iranian intellectuals, though it seemed to foreigners to be less oppressive than the contemporary censorships in most other Middle Eastern coun tries. The Iranian censorship was tightened after the start of terrorist attacks in 1971 and directed mainly against Marxist and Islamic revolutionary writings; but it was also used to prevent t.he printing of any sort of potentially trouble-causing matter. Publi cation of criticism of orthodox or popular religion was flot allowed in Iran between 1971 and 1977. Ali Dashti was therefore obliged to have Bist o Seh Sâl, his major work in this field, printed abroad (at Beirut) and to issue it anonymously.

Only oral and scaflty information about Ali Dashti’s experi ences after the Islamic revolution is available. He was arrested, and during an interrogation he received a beating and felI and broke his thigh. To what extent he recovered is flot clear. After release he was flot allowed to return to bis home, a pleasant, small house with a garden at Zarganda, a northern suburb of Tehrân. h is unlikely that he saw bis books and papers again. A notice in the Iranian periodical Ayanda reported his death in the month of Dey of the Iranian year 1360,i.e. between 22 Decembrer 1981 and 20 January 1982.

[Alain]

Il est en ligne ici : http://ali-dashti-23-years.tripod.com/

[lkm]

Il est en ligne ici : http://ali-dashti-23-years.tripod.com/

Merci beaucoup Alain
Tu va m’évite le scanne, merci beaucoup Alain, mais il est en Anglais, donc la traduction en français n’existe pas, je suis plus que sur de cela, il faut le traduire en français....
merci

[lkm]

Il est en ligne ici : http://ali-dashti-23-years.tripod.com/

Merci beaucoup Alain
Tu va m’évite le scanne, merci beaucoup Alain, mais il est en Anglais, donc la traduction en français n’existe pas, je suis plus que sur de cela, il faut le traduire en français....
merci

Ah non Alain c’est un résume du livre pas tous le livre qui fait 260 pages
merci

[io2d0_app_phpbb_4]

Salut la compagnie,

Je me propose de faire la traduction de la première partie postée par Karim.

S'il y a des passages qui me posent problème, je mettrai des commentaires en rouge dans le texte.

A+ !

[lkm]

Salut la compagnie,

Je me propose de faire la traduction de la première partie postée par Karim.

S'il y a des passages qui me posent problème, je mettrai des commentaires en rouge dans le texte.

A+ !

ok fred il a des mots en arabe ou Perse moi je m'occupe... après moi je ferai la comparaison avec la version perse

[Alain]

C'est en fait un document WORD je l'ai repassé en WORD, il est bien plus présentable. http://webdivers.free.fr/ali-dashti-23-years.doc. J'ai mis des sauts de page et mis en page les "notes".

Il me semble qu'il manque simplement le chapitre 6 qui est noté au départ mais non inclus

On peut se partager le travail de traduction en partant de ce WORD de référence.